Lots to share here. I'm a licensed clinician who's experienced intergenerational mental health challenges. Losing my mom at 61 – she was raised by her grandmother– and my younger brother's struggle with schizoaffective disorder, leading to his passing at 56, has given me some insight.
One major takeaway is the value of solid scientific research. While personal stories are interesting, they can't be the whole foundation. You can't just slap those experiences on everyone – it's more complex. I've leaned more into evidence-based practices in my work.
Oddly enough, I find myself using the term "recovery" in my professional language. Likely due to my own journey dealing with growing up with an alcoholic parent. That led me back to school, 30 years ago, where I earned a master's degree in psychology in education, and eventually became a psychotherapist.
My relationship with writing has been quite a journey. Unlike my mother, reading wasn't a source of comfort for me. It was a burden. And writing? Well, that was like trying to juggle on a unicycle. (I can’t do either of those two thing.) When I first started therapy, I used drawing to express myself, and later around 2000, I picked up photography to capture and sort out thoughts and feelings.
Words were like wild horses that needed taming. Putting my thoughts into writing? Imagine trying to eat flying spaghetti. Messy. But things have improved. I'm in a much better place today, embracing recovery. It’s been a methodical process of growth and development.
In a nutshell, I'm a perpetual learner, always a "work in progress." Life keeps teaching me lessons, and I'm open to them. As I keep moving forward, I'm dedicated to evidence-based approaches and continuous learning.
Thank you for sharing all us, John. And it seems to me you've mastered juggling on a unicycle as the writing is lovely! I'm so sorry for all you've lived through. That's a lot. I'm glad the mental health field is expanding in its understanding and treatment of mental health. As you note, there are so many different experiences. And so many new and exciting evidence-based approaches. I think we're all a work in progress! It definitely helps to be open to the lessons (I'm not always!!)!
Great interview. I resonate with so much of this. I absolutely believe mental health recovery is possible and agree that sleep, food and life routines can be a key part. Unfortunately the pharmaceutical industry has led the mental health field for too long. I do believe medication has its place, but I also see lots of people stuck on drugs that are just numbing things rather than healing things and keeping them stuck in a loop. Love the openess, honesty and vulnerability here. Thank you ❤️
I stumbled across this post via Notes--so glad I did! I signed up for Writers at Work just a couple of weeks ago, but I have not delved into details about the author of that ‘stack. This interview has made me even more thankful I went for the paid subscription.
I read A Summer to Die as a child, too. It was probably around the same time I saw a movie I had no business watching and began years of anxiety and panic attacks over death and dying. Am I glad I read the book? Yes. I learned so much from those books I consumed during that season of living in a small town with nothing to do but ride my bike to the library and check out books my mom probably would have disapproved had she actually paid any attention.
I love that the cats have been therapeutic. I had not been a servant to a cat (because that’s what we really are, right?) for decades until a kitten showed up on our doorstep a couple of months ago. I wrote a week ago about how she is healing something in me that I didn’t know was broken.
And the biggest takeaway from this interview was Sarah’s thoughts on normalcy. In my current world, I’m also not “normal.” Lately, I’ve been doing some things because I want to feel more in touch with my friends, but I’m realizing that my sanity depends on not forcing myself I to those scenarios.
I haven't read that book but feel as if I should as it's left quite an imprint on a few of you! I remember those sorts of library summers. They were wonderful in their own way.
Yay! A kitten! And, yes, they do seem to know how to heal things we weren't even aware needed healing. We are so lucky!
I completely agree with both Sarah's words and now yours. I feel like it's an important step in being healthy and grounded when we honor who we truly are. It's often such a balance!
I’m so happy to have you! And I’m so glad this resonated. (Apologies for the delayed response here, but I’ve been creating a post for W@W and serving my cats!) Normalcy leads so many of us astray. Thank you for reading!
I really enjoyed this interview with Sarah. I'm working with her now. I love how passionate she is about teaching us the ropes and improving our Substack and our writing. I also love how inspired it makes me feel to have her assistance. Even in short phone calls you get so much information and great learning. Having someone point you in the right direction, or confirm you're moving in the right direction is what I needed. Not just a cheerleader, but a very knowledgeable teacher. I really appreciate her.
Thanks Sarah! I've been setting aside 'writing hours' from 9-11 am each day and so far so good. Although it's only been a few days. But, at least I'm getting writing done and not procrastinating away the day! Talk to you soon. :)
That just made my day! And you don't need to do any more than that. Promise. None of the master writers wrote eight hours a day every day. Two is excellent!
<< Do you think writing is on its way to becoming a viable profession again? >>
I do not believe writing can become viable until the industry "cleans up its act." At present, the "Big Five" are unreachable (for most of us), while celebrities (athletes, columnists, politicians, radio/TV hosts, et al.) get huge book deals. Small publishers are a dubious prospect at best, and the world of self-publishing is a jungle.
Moreover, we see many other problems, beginning with the way authors lose control over products (e.g., on Amazon, GoodReads, et al.). Jane Frieman's blog (7 Aug 2023), "I Would Rather See My Books Get Pirated Than This (Or: Why Goodreads and Amazon Are Becoming Dumpster Fires)" discusses yet another aspect of the difficulties. Censorship, too, has reared its ugly head.
Finally, one must realize yet another "unpalatable truth" (if I may borrow from Soviet dialectic): that a person's discomfort with social media and inability to self-promote spell a death sentence for his/her literary aspirations. True, some people become adept at gaining thousands of followers, but why should the publishing world assume they are better authors than those who lack such social skills?
Bottom line: for some writing IS becoming viable; for others, including yours truly, it is not. Meanwhile, Amazon, GoodReads, et al. must become more responsive to the abuses heaped on authors.
You will not regret it at all - I know that I have been saved at least many at least of fruitless posting etc. In terms of the the big baddies out there - well - we us just create something else - not easy I know - but why not everything starts with something yes? be part of that - nothing is set in stone - unless you are a fossil
Oh my goodness! I LOVED the book, A Summer To Die. I’ve never heard anyone else mention it. My mom found a box of books in her basement years ago and said, “I’m pretty sure this is your box of books. It’s full of all those tear-your-heart-out, weepy books”. 😂
Something about witnessing the trauma along side the characters felt deep and beautiful to me, even though it was sad. And Sarah is right, Lowry wrote it so well.
What a lovely interview to read. Thank you both for sharing!
Oh, how wonderful! I'm glad you found a kindred spirit in Sarah! I must admit, I'd not heard of it. But now I'm intrigued! Tear-your-heart-out, weepy books can be so healing!
I honestly don’t remember what else was in there, but it could have been! This conversation is making me want to go back and read it again though. The only other book I can think of that effected me similarly was Me Before You.
Has a doctor ever used the word “recovery” with you? I did ask "how long do I have to take this?" (meds) and she responded that some people are on it for the rest of their lives and some can come off of them gradually after some years. I was happy with this answer. After reading this 'stack and seeing the doc's response was rare...maybe her younger age was a factor and some newer thinking is entering scene?
Do you think money is evil? Money does not change us...it REVEALS who we really are. :)
Do your pets freak out when you sing? First, curiosity, then disdain and twitching tails, lol.
Do you think writing is on its way to becoming a viable profession again? Since writing is a caring profession, I retain some hope because the robots can't replace that!
Sarah’s answers are so refreshing! Our culture puts an absurd emphasis on extroverted lifestyles and it’s so comforting to hear other successful, bright, radiant humans who love solitude, embrace routine, shun consumerism, and rock a 9pm bedtime.🙏😉
I loved this interview! There's so much here I want to think about some more: that money reveals and that mental-health recovery is possible. Thanks, Jane and Sarah!
I struggle with mental health and have sought help. Never once has someone used the word "recovery." It's literally never been said in the same sentence, in my experience. Just reading that gives me hope.
I can sing with my two cats, but only it a low volume/pitch. There was an unfortunate incident to my eyeball once when I was laying on the couch singing loudly and in a high pitch.
I also struggle with thinking money is evil. "People with a lot of money are greedy" is one of my limiting beliefs, taught to me from family and ancestral lineage. I work on unlearning this almost daily. Money is neutral. A tool. Any tool can be used for good or bad.
I finally let myself write and take this path of writing as a profession. So I'm really hoping it becomes viable as a profession again 😃
I'm so glad you're on Substack and pursuing writing. Fantastic. We have to.
Yes, a low volume can work with the kitties.
Money is a tough one for writers.
And I soooo hear you about recovery. My goal is to make sure everyone knows it's possible and every mental health professional offers it as a possibility.
These are amazing interview questions, Jane. And great answers from Sarah. I'm in the process of a podcast tour for my upcoming novel launch and I wish every interview posed questions like these--completely out of the box. I'm also glad to learn about your Substack and thanks to Sarah for sharing.
money (ie power?) may be the root of sooooo much evil but in and of itself no it is not evil....god helps those who help themselves and $ goes a stretch allowing for that to happen...work hard keep yopur head down and avoid toxic dramatic personalities be truthful to yourself and others in whatever occupation and $ will find you. period. sounds like a podcast huh?: "This TOO, I Believe!!!" heeeheeee
While I agree, money in itself isn't evil (which is also what Sarah's saying), the formula you're suggesting hasn't always worked for me or others I know. But I'm awfully glad if it works for you! That's wonderful!!
I can just see Sarah, her cats, her books, and her writing desk in her quiet apartment and feel the comfort of being true to yourself, not the world of expectations. It reminds me how empowering it is to watch someone comfortable in their own skin. Essential for us writers to learn and lean into this self-acceptance.
many things that resonate - across the pond there are many an oddball too - nature/nurture in terms of mental health - I can both ways with myself & my experiences- although I totally agree that the idea of what is "normal" and what is "recovery" too - it assumes that society (or our western ones) are well and healthy. mmmm I think not. Neurodiversity - is one thing I think is different - the brain can be wired differently - for me this is dyslexia/discalcula - and the "just concentrate" mob can make it so difficult for children who later grow up into adults who think they are lazy or dont try hard enough!
A room of your own - Virginia Woolf - her belief that a woman needs her own space to create (write) and the financial freedom to make this possible. I too know what it is like to live in places that were appalling - there are are medals for suffering for sure
Yes to all of this!! Especially the being made to believe you're lazy or don't try hard enough. Even at my age, that can be hard to overcome! I hope you're in a better place now. 🌸
absolutely - yet the undiagnosed dyslexia still has that imprint - with a 1st class degree and a PhD - I still fear - feared I was stupid. Thing is - we all have weaknesses and strengths - I enjoy mine now - in fact dyslexia is not a weakness at all.
Lots to share here. I'm a licensed clinician who's experienced intergenerational mental health challenges. Losing my mom at 61 – she was raised by her grandmother– and my younger brother's struggle with schizoaffective disorder, leading to his passing at 56, has given me some insight.
One major takeaway is the value of solid scientific research. While personal stories are interesting, they can't be the whole foundation. You can't just slap those experiences on everyone – it's more complex. I've leaned more into evidence-based practices in my work.
Oddly enough, I find myself using the term "recovery" in my professional language. Likely due to my own journey dealing with growing up with an alcoholic parent. That led me back to school, 30 years ago, where I earned a master's degree in psychology in education, and eventually became a psychotherapist.
My relationship with writing has been quite a journey. Unlike my mother, reading wasn't a source of comfort for me. It was a burden. And writing? Well, that was like trying to juggle on a unicycle. (I can’t do either of those two thing.) When I first started therapy, I used drawing to express myself, and later around 2000, I picked up photography to capture and sort out thoughts and feelings.
Words were like wild horses that needed taming. Putting my thoughts into writing? Imagine trying to eat flying spaghetti. Messy. But things have improved. I'm in a much better place today, embracing recovery. It’s been a methodical process of growth and development.
In a nutshell, I'm a perpetual learner, always a "work in progress." Life keeps teaching me lessons, and I'm open to them. As I keep moving forward, I'm dedicated to evidence-based approaches and continuous learning.
Thank you for sharing all us, John. And it seems to me you've mastered juggling on a unicycle as the writing is lovely! I'm so sorry for all you've lived through. That's a lot. I'm glad the mental health field is expanding in its understanding and treatment of mental health. As you note, there are so many different experiences. And so many new and exciting evidence-based approaches. I think we're all a work in progress! It definitely helps to be open to the lessons (I'm not always!!)!
Hi, John! Yes, solid research. That's so important now. And I love what you say about being a work in progress.
Great interview. I resonate with so much of this. I absolutely believe mental health recovery is possible and agree that sleep, food and life routines can be a key part. Unfortunately the pharmaceutical industry has led the mental health field for too long. I do believe medication has its place, but I also see lots of people stuck on drugs that are just numbing things rather than healing things and keeping them stuck in a loop. Love the openess, honesty and vulnerability here. Thank you ❤️
I agree with every word you wrote! And I'm glad you enjoyed the interview! xx
I'm so glad it spoke to you. Agreed!
I stumbled across this post via Notes--so glad I did! I signed up for Writers at Work just a couple of weeks ago, but I have not delved into details about the author of that ‘stack. This interview has made me even more thankful I went for the paid subscription.
I read A Summer to Die as a child, too. It was probably around the same time I saw a movie I had no business watching and began years of anxiety and panic attacks over death and dying. Am I glad I read the book? Yes. I learned so much from those books I consumed during that season of living in a small town with nothing to do but ride my bike to the library and check out books my mom probably would have disapproved had she actually paid any attention.
I love that the cats have been therapeutic. I had not been a servant to a cat (because that’s what we really are, right?) for decades until a kitten showed up on our doorstep a couple of months ago. I wrote a week ago about how she is healing something in me that I didn’t know was broken.
And the biggest takeaway from this interview was Sarah’s thoughts on normalcy. In my current world, I’m also not “normal.” Lately, I’ve been doing some things because I want to feel more in touch with my friends, but I’m realizing that my sanity depends on not forcing myself I to those scenarios.
Thanks, Jane, for a wonderful read!
I'm so glad you stumbled across it, as well!
I haven't read that book but feel as if I should as it's left quite an imprint on a few of you! I remember those sorts of library summers. They were wonderful in their own way.
Yay! A kitten! And, yes, they do seem to know how to heal things we weren't even aware needed healing. We are so lucky!
I completely agree with both Sarah's words and now yours. I feel like it's an important step in being healthy and grounded when we honor who we truly are. It's often such a balance!
I'm so glad you enjoyed it!
I’m so happy to have you! And I’m so glad this resonated. (Apologies for the delayed response here, but I’ve been creating a post for W@W and serving my cats!) Normalcy leads so many of us astray. Thank you for reading!
I really enjoyed this interview with Sarah. I'm working with her now. I love how passionate she is about teaching us the ropes and improving our Substack and our writing. I also love how inspired it makes me feel to have her assistance. Even in short phone calls you get so much information and great learning. Having someone point you in the right direction, or confirm you're moving in the right direction is what I needed. Not just a cheerleader, but a very knowledgeable teacher. I really appreciate her.
That's wonderful, Kim! And, yes, it makes such a difference! I'm so glad you have Sarah!
Hi, Kim! I love helping you and watching as your Substack takes off!
Thanks Sarah! I've been setting aside 'writing hours' from 9-11 am each day and so far so good. Although it's only been a few days. But, at least I'm getting writing done and not procrastinating away the day! Talk to you soon. :)
That just made my day! And you don't need to do any more than that. Promise. None of the master writers wrote eight hours a day every day. Two is excellent!
<< Do you think writing is on its way to becoming a viable profession again? >>
I do not believe writing can become viable until the industry "cleans up its act." At present, the "Big Five" are unreachable (for most of us), while celebrities (athletes, columnists, politicians, radio/TV hosts, et al.) get huge book deals. Small publishers are a dubious prospect at best, and the world of self-publishing is a jungle.
Moreover, we see many other problems, beginning with the way authors lose control over products (e.g., on Amazon, GoodReads, et al.). Jane Frieman's blog (7 Aug 2023), "I Would Rather See My Books Get Pirated Than This (Or: Why Goodreads and Amazon Are Becoming Dumpster Fires)" discusses yet another aspect of the difficulties. Censorship, too, has reared its ugly head.
Finally, one must realize yet another "unpalatable truth" (if I may borrow from Soviet dialectic): that a person's discomfort with social media and inability to self-promote spell a death sentence for his/her literary aspirations. True, some people become adept at gaining thousands of followers, but why should the publishing world assume they are better authors than those who lack such social skills?
Bottom line: for some writing IS becoming viable; for others, including yours truly, it is not. Meanwhile, Amazon, GoodReads, et al. must become more responsive to the abuses heaped on authors.
Oh, gosh, yes, I agree with much of this. It can all feel so disheartening. Oof.
I hear you and have good news: social media doesn't sell books! Email lists do, and we have Substack.
Well...I must learn how to use substack more efficiently and productively!
Join us at Writers at Work! Tons of free content to help: https://www.writersatwork.net/
You will not regret it at all - I know that I have been saved at least many at least of fruitless posting etc. In terms of the the big baddies out there - well - we us just create something else - not easy I know - but why not everything starts with something yes? be part of that - nothing is set in stone - unless you are a fossil
Gratitude! I certainly SHALL!
Oh my goodness! I LOVED the book, A Summer To Die. I’ve never heard anyone else mention it. My mom found a box of books in her basement years ago and said, “I’m pretty sure this is your box of books. It’s full of all those tear-your-heart-out, weepy books”. 😂
Something about witnessing the trauma along side the characters felt deep and beautiful to me, even though it was sad. And Sarah is right, Lowry wrote it so well.
What a lovely interview to read. Thank you both for sharing!
Oh, how wonderful! I'm glad you found a kindred spirit in Sarah! I must admit, I'd not heard of it. But now I'm intrigued! Tear-your-heart-out, weepy books can be so healing!
I'm glad you enjoyed the interview!
It's a brutal read, Jane.
Was 'Bridge to Terabithia' in that box? As Jane would say, oof.
I honestly don’t remember what else was in there, but it could have been! This conversation is making me want to go back and read it again though. The only other book I can think of that effected me similarly was Me Before You.
Has a doctor ever used the word “recovery” with you? I did ask "how long do I have to take this?" (meds) and she responded that some people are on it for the rest of their lives and some can come off of them gradually after some years. I was happy with this answer. After reading this 'stack and seeing the doc's response was rare...maybe her younger age was a factor and some newer thinking is entering scene?
Do you think money is evil? Money does not change us...it REVEALS who we really are. :)
Do your pets freak out when you sing? First, curiosity, then disdain and twitching tails, lol.
Do you think writing is on its way to becoming a viable profession again? Since writing is a caring profession, I retain some hope because the robots can't replace that!
//END
Hopefully some newer thinking! That would be wonderful. And I'm glad you had a good experience with your doctor!
That sounds about right for cats!
And, yes, robots can't replace our human hearts, so true!
Oh, I love this: 'writing is a caring profession'--amen.
Sarah’s answers are so refreshing! Our culture puts an absurd emphasis on extroverted lifestyles and it’s so comforting to hear other successful, bright, radiant humans who love solitude, embrace routine, shun consumerism, and rock a 9pm bedtime.🙏😉
This made me laugh out loud! So true!
Hi, Kimberly! Rock a 9 pm bedtime--if possible. The world would be a better place.
10000000%!!!
I loved this interview! There's so much here I want to think about some more: that money reveals and that mental-health recovery is possible. Thanks, Jane and Sarah!
I know! Sarah is really trotting out the wisdom!
Hi, Jillian! I'm a huge fan of yours. This means so much to me.
I struggle with mental health and have sought help. Never once has someone used the word "recovery." It's literally never been said in the same sentence, in my experience. Just reading that gives me hope.
I can sing with my two cats, but only it a low volume/pitch. There was an unfortunate incident to my eyeball once when I was laying on the couch singing loudly and in a high pitch.
I also struggle with thinking money is evil. "People with a lot of money are greedy" is one of my limiting beliefs, taught to me from family and ancestral lineage. I work on unlearning this almost daily. Money is neutral. A tool. Any tool can be used for good or bad.
I finally let myself write and take this path of writing as a profession. So I'm really hoping it becomes viable as a profession again 😃
I'm so glad Sarah's words gave you hope. Getting proper help can be so tricky. And then so wonderful when you receive it.
Haha. Now that's a story you should write!!
Yes, so many money limiting beliefs we've been indoctrinated with. Daily unlearning is good! Well done!
Yes, me, too!
I'm so glad you're on Substack and pursuing writing. Fantastic. We have to.
Yes, a low volume can work with the kitties.
Money is a tough one for writers.
And I soooo hear you about recovery. My goal is to make sure everyone knows it's possible and every mental health professional offers it as a possibility.
Thank you 😊
These are amazing interview questions, Jane. And great answers from Sarah. I'm in the process of a podcast tour for my upcoming novel launch and I wish every interview posed questions like these--completely out of the box. I'm also glad to learn about your Substack and thanks to Sarah for sharing.
Thank you so much for your kind words, Mary! They mean a lot. And congratulations on your novel launch! That's wonderful!
Thank you, Jane.
Agreed! Great interview questions!
She's a master.
Edith Wharton! Edith Wharton!
Truth! I think Sarah is the third person now to have House of Mirth on her reread list!
money (ie power?) may be the root of sooooo much evil but in and of itself no it is not evil....god helps those who help themselves and $ goes a stretch allowing for that to happen...work hard keep yopur head down and avoid toxic dramatic personalities be truthful to yourself and others in whatever occupation and $ will find you. period. sounds like a podcast huh?: "This TOO, I Believe!!!" heeeheeee
While I agree, money in itself isn't evil (which is also what Sarah's saying), the formula you're suggesting hasn't always worked for me or others I know. But I'm awfully glad if it works for you! That's wonderful!!
lol im a political radical get what you are saying
i Really do
😉
if you d like take a look at first post i ever wrote on here as bullshit vaccine
its,all true
nonetheless all the Robert Reich stuff aside and its opposite the GOP
$ needs a new paradign im thinkin'
I can just see Sarah, her cats, her books, and her writing desk in her quiet apartment and feel the comfort of being true to yourself, not the world of expectations. It reminds me how empowering it is to watch someone comfortable in their own skin. Essential for us writers to learn and lean into this self-acceptance.
I agree with all of this! 🌸
many things that resonate - across the pond there are many an oddball too - nature/nurture in terms of mental health - I can both ways with myself & my experiences- although I totally agree that the idea of what is "normal" and what is "recovery" too - it assumes that society (or our western ones) are well and healthy. mmmm I think not. Neurodiversity - is one thing I think is different - the brain can be wired differently - for me this is dyslexia/discalcula - and the "just concentrate" mob can make it so difficult for children who later grow up into adults who think they are lazy or dont try hard enough!
A room of your own - Virginia Woolf - her belief that a woman needs her own space to create (write) and the financial freedom to make this possible. I too know what it is like to live in places that were appalling - there are are medals for suffering for sure
Yes to all of this!! Especially the being made to believe you're lazy or don't try hard enough. Even at my age, that can be hard to overcome! I hope you're in a better place now. 🌸
absolutely - yet the undiagnosed dyslexia still has that imprint - with a 1st class degree and a PhD - I still fear - feared I was stupid. Thing is - we all have weaknesses and strengths - I enjoy mine now - in fact dyslexia is not a weakness at all.
The rest - always a work in progress